CwL Ep79: Sam Sutherland on accessing joy – Part Two

Lisa Corduff:

Hi, it’s Lisa Corduff, welcome to the podcast where you can expect inspiring, raw, energising and transformative conversations with people on the path of personal evolution. I’m here to really live my life. And if you are too, these conversations are just for you. I’m really glad you’re here. Enjoy.

Lisa Corduff:

Okay, we’ve got Sam back on the podcast and it feels like it’s been a long time since we last spoke on the podcast, because I feel like these post-lockdown weeks are kind of like a lot is changing. And I know after we had our chat last week, we were both kind of feeling off. I can’t remember what day it was, maybe it was Friday, I wrote a post on socials and it was about how the ins and outs of lockdown felt very similar to Nick’s recovery. So being with someone in recovery, where you’re like, “Oh, my God, everything’s great. Everything’s amazing. Okay, I think we’re going to plan something, I think let’s do that. Now I’m just going to allow myself to feel hopeful that this period of sobriety is going to last. Things are feeling really amazing, on top of the world, and then smash.” He would have had a drink and relapse, he’s just like, it’s so deflating, you have to pick yourself up, and then oftentimes he found it difficult to stop himself. So he’d go and have periods in rehab.

Lisa Corduff:

And I would have found that really traumatic and really worrying. And then he’d go and I’d be in charge of the kids, I’d be keeping the business running. I’d be trying to appear normal, because we couldn’t tell anyone what was going on. So the whole thing was just exhausting. And it was up and down, up and down, up and down. But that was when I really started to work on, “Okay, this is happening and yet, I want to be okay. And yet, I want to enjoy my life. And yet, I still want to eat healthy.” Do you know? So I started to just be very deliberate with myself and include things in my day, no matter what was happening, that helped me feel good. It’s not complicated, but we kind of have to get ourselves back, thinking about it, create a consciousness around it.

Lisa Corduff:

And I think I’d just sort of forgotten this last few weeks that we can still be worried about going back into lockdown, or we can be feeling funky and fatigued and kind of decision made out. I can’t, my brain’s not back online properly. And yet, can still find something to really feel great about each day.

Lisa Corduff:

And so I started going along that path. And then you and I, Sam, and our amazing friend, Shalom, we were all just chatting in our thread as we do every day multiple times.

Sam Sutherland:

All day, every day.

Lisa Corduff:

We were talking about your anxiety again, and where you were kind of at with that, which you can explain a little bit, and then how we got to this point of writing up a joy list. So do you want to just share with everyone what kind of precipitated the call for that in terms of, not necessarily the circumstances surrounding it, but when you’re starting to feel like that, and then the choice that you recognised you had?

Sam Sutherland:

Yeah, so we talked a little bit on Part One of this podcast about me feeling a bit anxious and how that’s not generally where I would tend to go to and I’m struggling with that a little bit. Also, partly because it’s kind of a new feeling to manage for me. I mean, there’s a number of things that contribute to it, but what was happening was that it’s like I ended up just feeling anxious about every area of my life in some way. So if I thought about any area too much, I would find a way to be anxious about it. And so that’s like buying a house or my relationship, or my business or my finances, or my friendships.

Sam Sutherland:

And so that also is an interesting thing for me to have become aware of, which is that the anxiety is there, and I’m needing to manage it. And if I don’t do anything to try and manage it at the moment, I can just totally superimpose it on anything. You talk a lot about the stories that we make up and the stories we attach to things. And I can find an anxious story to attach to any of the things that are triggering me at the moment, because none of them are really triggered me. It’s just that I’m feeling anxious and need to manage that, and not projected onto every day of my life. You talked also, in the last episode a little bit about what you just mentioned, this sort of fear of going back into lockdown. And I obviously can’t speak for everyone who’s in Sydney and New South Wales, but we haven’t been in and out of lockdown as many times as you have. And our current Premier is way less likely to put us back into lockdown.

Sam Sutherland:

Although having said that, a mutual friend of ours, the son is at a school where there’s been exposure, and so she’s back homeschooling again. But I think on a statewide level, it doesn’t feel like a big risk. However, there is this post lockdown overwhelm we talked about, never really having a rest and then it’s just straight back into life. And there’s tennis lessons and swimming lessons and social activities and work is picking up and all this stuff that’s happening but we never really got to recover from lockdown and before going into this.

Sam Sutherland:

And so then we were talking about, if I put my anxious attention on any area of my life, well, that effectively makes me feel anxious about that area of my life. And so then how do we find the things that actually make us feel really high vibe and feel happy or joyful or also grounded? So anxiety for me is a high energy. Depression I think, for me, is like a solid energy. But when I’m feeling this anxiety, I’m feeling very ungrounded and flighty and sort of zingy. And so what are the things that make me feel joyful, but also don’t increase that level of zinginess? [crosstalk 00:07:25].

Lisa Corduff:

We don’t need any more zing.

Sam Sutherland:

And so then we started-

Lisa Corduff:

But-

Sam Sutherland:

Oh, yeah.

Lisa Corduff:

No, you can go.

Sam Sutherland:

Well, then we started writing lists of, what are the things that make us feel joyful? And I thought that’d be an interesting thing for us to talk about today.

Lisa Corduff:

It’s an interesting thing.

Sam Sutherland:

Yeah, so I don’t know if you’ve been listening to Glennon Doyle’s podcast, but she did one on joy and on how many women don’t even remember where to access it. I can remember after my son was born, maybe he was 18 months old, or two years old, or something like that. And everything in your life changes, obviously, when you have a kid, plus I had postnatal depression that was medicated right up until he was three. And I remember my ex saying something to the effect of, “Where did my fun loving, happy, girlfriend go, or wife go?” And I said, “She’s dead. She’s dead, and she’s never coming back,” because I felt so far removed from that person that I used to be.

Sam Sutherland:

I didn’t even really recognise that. I mean, obviously, that conversation made me recognise it. But it was only like a couple of years ago that I realised, really properly, like how disconnected from that old person I had become and how hard I was finding that. And anyway, in this Glennon Doyle podcast, she was talking about exactly that, and how we sort of get so bogged down in life and doing all the things for everyone else, that we just forget what it is that even makes us feel joyful. And I’ve had conversations in the past with people like a coach saying, write down a list of what brings you joy. And I’m like, “I don’t know what goes on my mind.”

Sam Sutherland:

And when I try and write the list, it just feels like another To-Do-List. So how do you have a joy list that’s not a to-do-list that actually makes you feel joyful? I don’t know how to do that.

Lisa Corduff:

Literally, I’ve built a business around this exact thing, because one of the things that happens with any type of change, and I help women create the changes that they want to see. Most of the time they say one of two things. Number one, do you have to know what you want in order to be able to do this programme? Do you have to know what the change is? It’s more like, this just sucks.

Sam Sutherland:

Yeah, this isn’t worth it.

Lisa Corduff:

This is just sucks, and I literally have no idea. I haven’t asked myself that question. What do you mean change? Change to what? Do I need to know what to change to? So that’s a real block for people. And then the other one is, when they’re asked what makes them happy, you could just do this. I’ve done feel good challenges. I’ve done all that sort of stuff. The reason why I do that is because I want to draw attention to the fact that most women, when you ask them, “What makes you happy?” They’ve got absolutely no idea. None. And so what a beautiful thing to start exploring with yourself now.

Lisa Corduff:

Then can come the judgement , “Oh, my God, I’ve totally let myself down. I’ve just got lost in my life. I’ve just wasted years.” But you don’t have to do that, you can just start right now and just choose something and see it as a curious kind of exploration. And before we head into this, I just want to also say that the conversation that we were having was mostly about meaning, that you had attached to something that you actually had no idea about. And it was like, “Oh, how do I go here? Why do I keep going to this place?” And so we were talking about how maybe when we’re feeling good in ourselves, when our life is kind of vibing, when we’re kicking goals at work or in business, when our social calendar feels full without being overwhelming, and we’re having great conversations and feeling connected to people and to ourselves, all that sort of stuff. Life is full of the good stuff.

Lisa Corduff:

So we’re not just sitting there making meaning out of the bad stuff or out of just things that have question marks on them. We fill in the blanks so many times with meaning that doesn’t exist. And that’s where we were in that conversation. It’s like, hang on, you’ve created this for yourself. How was your day? What brought you to this point? Or like, how could you increase your vibe, your frequency, what makes you happy, so that you’re not just sitting here like-

Sam Sutherland:

Spinning in my head.

Lisa Corduff:

Spinning out of control.

Sam Sutherland:

Yeah, there’s a couple of things I think are interesting to add to that. So Glennon Doyle talks about this exact thing too. And the language she uses is, the story I’m making up is. And she also talks about using that in conversation, which I have done, I use that quite a lot with my partner, because it makes it much less personal. The thing is, I’m making up a story. So let’s talk about the story that I’m making up. Not let’s talk about a thing that I’m projecting onto you that now I’m saying you were doing. And I find that actually really useful and helpful phrase. And that’s exactly what I was doing. I was making up all kinds of stories about stuff in my life that was unhelpful, but I was letting it really spiral and get away from me.

Sam Sutherland:

And then another thing that I want to talk about too is, we’ve talked a little bit, just touched on maybe talking about what’s on our list that brings us joy and what makes us feel really good and what makes us feel high vibing. But also think sometimes there’s a step before that, because when I think about the things that are on my list, joy to me is kind of a big energy. And maybe we don’t need to be seeking joy and fireworks and stuff all the time. Some of the things that I love doing, one of the things on my list is swimming in the ocean, which is something I do a lot and I did that, swim in the ocean every day for a year when I was trying to change my life. And when I think about the energy that I am seeking when I do that, actually very often it’s peace, it’s not joy.

Sam Sutherland:

I love doing it and it makes me feel good but it makes me feel peaceful and grounded and connected to myself and connected to source and stuff, which is not the same. I don’t think is like seeking joy.

Sam Sutherland:

That makes me think a little bit of, let’s go out to bars and dance, which I do love doing but it’s a different type of energy that I’m seeking with these things.

Lisa Corduff:

Peace is a higher frequency on the vibrational scale than happiness.

Sam Sutherland:

Oh, didn’t I know that.

Lisa Corduff:

Yeah. And when I was changing my life, the vibe that I was going for was peace and calm.

Sam Sutherland:

I think it’s pretty interesting because without knowing that that’s the higher vibe energy, that is what I have been stepping towards for the last five years as well [crosstalk 00:14:46].

Lisa Corduff:

What are you in human design?

Sam Sutherland:

I don’t know. I’ve never done it.

Lisa Corduff:

Sam!

Sam Sutherland:

Also, my birth time and [crosstalk 00:14:55].

Lisa Corduff:

Oh, find out your birth time. I think everyone should do this. Everyone should go and just do a free online quiz and find out their human design. I should get [Kylie 00:15:05] on and talk about human design. I’ve found it fascinating. And for me, I’m a Manifester. My sort of core state of being is peace. So, it’s the thing that my design craves. Unintentionally, I had a very chaotic life. And the thing that I kept on wanting was peace, but I talk in terms of happiness, because I think of it as like smiling inside. You know when you just feel, no one else even has to be able to see it on the outside, but from within me, I’m smiling inside. So that’s when, literally, when my eyes see the beach, I smile inside.

Lisa Corduff:

When I’m sitting in a cafe, and I’ve got my coffee there, and I’ve got my Portuguese tat there, my laptop, and there’s ambient noise, I am smiling inside. I’m not outwardly, no one would know that I’m having a high vibe, Lisa moment. But they are my codes to my smile inside vibe. And that’s sort of my judge of it. We can have them in all sorts of different ways.

Lisa Corduff:

So often, my kids asked me to watch movies with them, I’m like, “I would literally love to sit down on the couch with you, but I stripped the beds earlier today, so I’ve got a remake or your beds before bedtime and, blah, blah, blah.” There’ll be just things that just kind of have to get done. So when I get to the point where I can just indulge in being on the couch and watching a kid’s movie for two hours, that’s a smile inside moment for me. Because as a solo parent, I sometimes find that there’s a lot to get done, and there’s no one else I can say, “Hey, could you just blah, blah, blah?”

Sam Sutherland:

I know what you mean. Yeah, and then I don’t have Charlie with me all the time. But same, there’s no one else is going to do anything else at any stage. All the joys are me and the ones that I give to my son.

Lisa Corduff:

So what’s was on your joy list.

Sam Sutherland:

So my list, I’ve got in front of me. So the ocean. I talked about ocean in the first part of this podcast as well, the ocean is a huge one for me. I think I said it then too, whatever energy you take to the ocean, it has big energy, and it can take it for you. And I find that that’s true, whether they’re waves or whether it’s flat, whether it’s calm, whether it’s quiet, when it’s busy at the beach, none of that matters. It’s just a different form of it taking whatever energy you have and sending it away, or just holding it, not sending it away, holding it. And I actually often do a little, it’s not quite a prayer, but I’ve done quite a lot of energy work. And there’s one form of energy work, it’s called non-personal awareness. And there’re these little phrases that you use with it.

Sam Sutherland:

And I do a little non-personal awareness phrase anytime I go to the beach to swim for my energy to find peace or whatever. And so I did a little phrase, a little bit of a prayer to the universe, I guess. I swim, go under. And it’s like a really cleansing thing.

Sam Sutherland:

In fact, there’s this story when my son’s dad and I, we’re trying to figure out where he would go to primary school. So he’s eight, he’s in year two now, so this was a few years ago. We were texting. We’re basically having a text argument, which isn’t a great place to be. Anyway, but we weren’t communicating very well then. I’m happy to report that’s improved. But we were having this text argument and I said, “I have to put my phone down. I’m not ignoring you. But I have to remove myself from this conversation.” And then I walked down to the beach and I was listening to [Pemuterun 00:19:24] in the hallway, and I was walking just a 25 minute walk. Because [inaudible 00:19:28] he’s a Shambhala Buddhist nun, listening to her the whole time I was walking down there. And I do my little prayer. And I had a swim. And I got a very clear message of, you don’t have to control anything.

Sam Sutherland:

And then I felt peaceful. That’s the thing too, I was bawling how it is, especially [inaudible 00:19:50] bawling, had my swim, got this really clear message, you don’t have to control anything, walked back home, and I messaged and I said, “School A. Either would probably be fine. I think the good things about school A, are this, and the good things about school B are this, and the bad things about each of them are this.” And I said, “It will have a really big impact on my life if we go to the school that’s further away, because I have to get into the city and I’m finding it hard to manage my life anyway. So my preference is one of the schools.” And he just said, “Okay.” And that was it.

Sam Sutherland:

We talked about holding the outcome in an open palm is a way that I like to phrase it, which is like, I see it sitting there, and I would like it, but I’m holding it gently. And if it chooses to fly away, and that’s not what I get as the outcome, well, my hand is there ready to catch something else. You know?

Lisa Corduff:

Yeah.

Sam Sutherland:

And when I approached that conversation with him like that, he just agreed, there was no more fights, there was no more animosity, there was no more mean text messages. It was just done. So yeah, the ocean is a big one for me for resetting my energy.

Sam Sutherland:

Another one is camping and being in nature. So the energy of the ocean is actually really different to the energy of the forest, even though they’re both nature. And I think the forest and camping and stuff can be really grounding, and it’s a different type of peaceful energy.

Lisa Corduff:

I love mountains. I love mountains.

Sam Sutherland:

Yeah. And it’s interesting, I think, how they all, the ocean versus the rain forest, versus some other forest, versus the mountains, they all have really different energy. And yet, they all bring me back to peace in some kind of way, a different kind of way. But I seek out nature where there’s not anyone there. So I live actually relatively close to Centennial Park, which is the biggest park in Sydney, which is really nice, but really busy. It doesn’t feel to me like a place where it’s peaceful and grounded.

Sam Sutherland:

Other ones, reading a great novel, doubly joyful. If I’m just reading a great novel lying in the sun, it’s triply joyful if it’s sun that’s not going to burn me.

Lisa Corduff:

Who sits in the sun? Are you talking under shade because-

Sam Sutherland:

My ideal is winter sun. So it’s not hot, and you can live fully in the sun, you won’t get burned. It keeps you nice and warm. And I can read my book, I love doing that. I also actually really love sleeping in the sun. So at the beach or in the park or whatever, but covered in sun cream or covered in something that’s going to minimise getting sunburn.

Sam Sutherland:

Seeing friends is something that really brings me a lot of joy, and I love being around people. I’m really extroverted like you are. And so I find being around people will always lift my energy. And I actually find just spending time with my son is super cheesy, but I still really get a lot of joy from hanging out with him and chatting to him and talking about stories. There’s a pub in between my house and his school, and he always wants to go there for dinner. And so maybe every fortnight we go there for dinner. That’s like a fun little mom-kid date. And hang out and chat and do the maze and the hidden picture thing while we’re waiting for food. And it’s a really lovely way to spend time with him. And yeah, I think that was on my list. Horse riding, which I love, but is a bit less accessible.

Lisa Corduff:

Yeah. I love that list. What a juicy list. These things are available to us if that’s what we’re seeking out, if that’s what our attention is on. I think it’s really, really important to remember that it’s okay if we don’t feel like accessing them sometimes. You know when you like, “I know their fucking rules.” And I talk about this with Lisa Carpenter when we share a conversation. And she was like, “Sometimes I just want to put all my tools in the fricking toolbox, kick the toolbox. I don’t want the tools.”

Sam Sutherland:

“I don’t want to do anything.”

Lisa Corduff:

Yeah, so she said she was like, “I just want to watch baking shows on Netflix.” And it’s also okay to have those times. You don’t have to be on it all the time. When we’re ready or when we’re sick of ourselves or when we’re wanting to shift that vibration, fill ourselves up in ways that are accessible to us, that don’t rely on anybody else, that they’re just purely our little smile on the inside things, we can.

Sam Sutherland:

Yeah, yeah. And also, on that thing of like, we don’t always want to or have to do these things. Sometimes we just want to sleep on the couch and watch Netflix for hours. And I remember when I was talking to my therapist. Obviously, I’ve talked before about how I was so heartbroken after my divorce. And I was talking to my therapist, I can’t remember exactly what I was talking about, but maybe I was like, “Oh, well, I shouldn’t be dating because I’m not ready for a relationship,” or something like that. And he said, “Well, Sam, there are no prizes for getting to the end of this the hardest possible way. So why don’t you allow yourself to have some fun?” I don’t even know if it was about dating, just that line.

Sam Sutherland:

There’s no prizes for getting to the end of this the hardest possible way. And in fact, there’s so much about the journey, the destination anyway, maybe actually getting there the easiest possible way the most joyful pathway, the most peaceful possible way. Maybe that’s the prize itself? I mean, I don’t know if I’m winning that prize at the moment, however, it means it’s sort of a way of giving yourself permission to do the [crosstalk 00:26:05].

Lisa Corduff:

Right, right. Oh, I can’t even tell you I’ve had energy clearings to get rid of worry around being judged. And I was like, what that’s about? And oftentimes, it’s been about worrying that people are judging me for being okay, because you don’t want to be seen as being toxic, live positive or stuff like that.

Sam Sutherland:

[inaudible 00:26:38] care.

Lisa Corduff:

Yeah, or that I didn’t care. And I think that’s why I share sometimes, share so much tears and stuff like that, because I’m like, I am a naturally optimistic person. All my life, things work out. Sometimes, I now know that naivety of life is good all the time and we’re all… That bubble has been burst. Hard, terrible, tragic, traumatic things happen. And yet, I’ll find, if I give myself the space, to feel the feelings. I don’t have to attach to being in the feeling for a really long time. I naturally want to move to find the things. I’ll get my eyes to that water, so I can feel that.

Lisa Corduff:

But I was, obviously subconsciously, had a fear around being judged for that, because aren’t you meant to be blah, blah, blah? Or who are you-

Sam Sutherland:

Well, how do you feel like you’re meant to be? Still grieving?

Lisa Corduff:

You know what? What I got really good at over the years of being married to Nick was compartmentalising. So for many years of running that business, I was showing up. And really awful things were happening in the background. My life, as I knew it, was falling apart, and I would show up, and I’d cook a fricking roast chicken on Facebook Live, and I would bring it because it was my job. Everyone has to show up for their work, and I was showing up for mine. And I got quite good at turning it on.

Sam Sutherland:

Yeah.

Lisa Corduff:

And so through the hard times, even when people knew there were hard times, I could still do that. But I think people were looking at me going like, “Is this real?” This is all, see once again, making meaning. It didn’t exist, I have no idea how people perceive me. No idea whatsoever. I just tried to share as honestly the ups and downs so that I am the truest representation of myself that I can be or that I am able to share through this business. I mean, obviously people don’t know all the things we share in our Facebook.

Sam Sutherland:

But it’s such a gift that honesty and authenticity, I think, because we talked about this before as well. One of the biggest gifts, I think, that we can all give to each other is the knowledge that we’re not alone in our human struggle. When you were just saying, everyone has to show up for work, I remember really shortly after I got divorced, or split up, we’re not divorced yet, I was talking to one of my close friend’s moms, she was divorced. And she said, “When I got divorced, I would drop the kids off at school or whatever. And then I would cry the whole drive to work. And then I would work, I’d be okay at work. And I’d cry the whole way home. Now pick the kids up, and I would eat dinner and all that and whatever.” And so she was sort of sharing her way of finding place to make space for the grief in her life, because we do have to still show up for our kids and show up for our jobs, whatever.

Sam Sutherland:

But I think one of the reasons why someone like Glennon Doyle has been so popular and also you, Lisa, why you’re so popular is because you actually do talk really authentically and honestly about this stuff. And people are like, “Oh, right, it’s not just me.” I found that when I shared that I had postnatal depression, so many people… I don’t even have any kind of audience. I was blogging for my friends, basically. So many people were like, “Oh, my god, me too. Thank you for being so honest about it. I didn’t know anyone else felt like this.” Me too. Me too. Me too, over and over and over. And then, same with the mother’s group, people in mother’s group, one of the girls sort of left early one day and I caught up with her. And she was like, “I would have left mother’s group if it wasn’t for the things that you’ve been writing about,” because she felt like she was all alone in feeling the way she was feeling. And actually, it’s like, we feel alone, but we’re never actually alone.

Lisa Corduff:

Yes, so much. We just did a Body Talk session in our Live the Change Group, which I love, it’s a modality I really, really like of healing. And you can do it as a group. And she was just tapping into particular things that the group needed. It’s like, how are we all? How do we all have this? One of them was a feeling of being defeated like, “Why do I even try?” in a particular area of your life? Everyone was able to say, yeah. It was that. And there was something else? Oh, I can’t remember what it was. I think it was a fear of something and without a doubt, everyone… I’m like, how humanising is that? How nice that we can be in our own personal struggles or in our own heads but we can look around and think, Oh yeah, her too. Oh, yeah. So it’s not just a me thing. It’s an us thing.” And I think that’s actually why I love the work that you do in the world in particular, and why those conversations about what’s happening for women at work, and all of those sorts of things are so valuable, because everyone’s feeling it.

Lisa Corduff:

So can we create conversation, create opportunity for people to interact with? Something that they might not have put words to themselves, but perfectly defines the struggle that they have in their life? It’s like just bliss almost, when you realise that you’re not alone.

Sam Sutherland:

Mm, yeah. And it also means that there’s hope for some kind of solution, or acceptance, right?

Lisa Corduff:

Yeah, I love the way Sarah Wilson talks about the climate crisis. Her, and her ability to talk about that, or contextualise what so many of us are feeling and still find hope, sit in that space. It’s just like, please just keep talking, keep talking in the way that you’re talking, I really need that.

Sam Sutherland:

Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Corduff:

And I think when anyone is sharing from that personal place of we’re all just trying to figure this out, but come on, guys, we’ll get through, come on. Like, “Oh, oh, oh shine light on where there is hope.” That is a relief to people who are like, “Well, I could get completely overwhelmed by this in any moment.” Or, “This is what’s been keeping me up at night.” You know?

Sam Sutherland:

Mm, mm.

Lisa Corduff:

So, because it’s almost school pick up, did you do anything from your joy list today? Or will you?

Sam Sutherland:

I have not I was going to go to the beach this morning with my son and then he vetoed the whole thing and said tomorrow morning. That’s [Stephanie 00:34:48] he’s been warned. I mean, same friends. Does this count as the same friends?

Lisa Corduff:

Oh, it kind of does.

Sam Sutherland:

It’s fun.

Lisa Corduff:

Yes.

Sam Sutherland:

So I think what’s available to me today? I did exercise. I didn’t say exercising, but that also is something that really makes… Again, it’s not something I would describe as joyful, but I really love doing it, it makes me feel good, it makes me feel in my body if I did that. In fact, I think the thing that I’m going to do to help move me towards peace today is some journaling, because I’ve been trying to do morning pages, which is really hard to do first thing in the morning but it helps us. Our fun journaling kind of helps get all the things out of my head. And while I’m in this state of slightly heightened anxiety, getting all the things out of my head is a helpful thing to be doing at the moment. So, rather than a joy list, I’m going to say the thing that’s going to move me closer to peace.

Lisa Corduff:

Do you have a process for your journaling or do you just free flow?

Sam Sutherland:

Free Flow. Do you have a process for your journaling?

Lisa Corduff:

No. No, I don’t. I don’t. Sometimes it is just getting stuff out. But oftentimes, the question that I ask myself, because in my programmes, we talk about being a meaning making machine, I often ask myself, what meaning am I creating around something? Because often I’ll pick up the pen and journal when I’m having a bit of a spiral moment. Are you creating any meaning? And also, what are you not seeing here?

Sam Sutherland:

Those are good questions. You can journal those two questions.

Lisa Corduff:

Yeah, what are you not seeing is a really, really good one because it just kind of invites a next level of exploration, which sometimes to get out of your own head, it’s that whole thing, right? We were talking about this too, I’ve felt a little bit just getting a bit bored of myself and the same things that I was saying over and over again. And you can never solve the problem that you’ve created with the same level of thinking that created it. So I’m always looking at how to bring a different level of consciousness to whatever it is. So that’s why sometimes, instead of journaling, I’ll often just meditate or do something like that. Or listen to music and walk because it will actually shift the way that I’m thinking about something.

Sam Sutherland:

I do a lot of meditation for that purpose as well to not even necessarily calm things down. Another tool that I use a lot, although I don’t think you can actually get it anywhere anymore, is [Samnaun 00:37:34] Smith, who I know has spoken to some of your community. She has a recording that I got in one of her programmes years ago, called Mind Body Soul exercise. She might even actually just sell it as a standalone. You actually use the non-personal awareness that I spoke about earlier in this chat in some ways, but so you sort of ask your body, and then you ask your mind, and then you ask your soul to answer a question for you, which I love because, I think, especially if you’re not… I don’t know, I have done a lot of spiritual practises and stuff and a lot of energy work but still, I could get stuck in my mind. And if you try and bypass your mind, it can just get noisy in there. Whereas this activity, it specifically lets you hear all the noise in your mind. You don’t even have to listen to it, but it’s not clamouring to be heard.

Lisa Corduff:

Oh, so good. I mean, Samnaun Smith, she’s just-

Sam Sutherland:

She’s amazing. She changed my life. She changed my life.

Lisa Corduff:

She used to come into the small steps membership every December and we clear stuff out, compassion key and all that stuff. I think I need to talk to her again on the podcast.

Lisa Corduff:

Sam, that is part two complete.

Sam Sutherland:

Part two complete.

Lisa Corduff:

Thanks for checking in-

Sam Sutherland:

Thanks for having me.

Lisa Corduff:

… With me on the podcast. You were highly requested. So hopefully everyone is feeling a bit satiated with Sam right now. But they can also go and listen to your podcast. Have you still got EPS going up?

Sam Sutherland:

Yeah, yeah. New episode came up today. I spoke to Jess Hill who made me do about the National Emergency of Domestic Abuse in Australia.

Lisa Corduff:

What’s it called again?

Sam Sutherland:

My podcast is called Women at Work with Samantha Sutherland.

Lisa Corduff:

Go Listen on your podcast out of choice.

Sam Sutherland:

[crosstalk 00:39:35] And then Colbeck is in the next one after, maybe in two, who wrote a book called White Feminism, which really talks about a lot of the systemic struggles that we face and how the issue with white feminism as an individual solution to it. We’re talking a lot about, it’s not just me, I’m not just alone. But the structures that we are in at the moment expect us to solve all the problems individually and actually what we want is collective responses to stuff.

Lisa Corduff:

So juicy.

Sam Sutherland:

Colbeck has changed my… I felt like my mind was blown. I read her book and in one chapter I almost [inaudible 00:40:17] every sentence without [crosstalk 00:40:18].

Lisa Corduff:

Did you read that as part of your feminist book club?

Sam Sutherland:

We did a podcast. In the feminist book club, there’s a book, a movie, a podcast, an article or something else each time, and we listen to a podcast of hers.

Lisa Corduff:

Okay. And you were like, “Give me more.”

Sam Sutherland:

“Give me more.”

Lisa Corduff:

All right, I really have to go and collect my children, which is a beautiful thing to say right after all this time, because they’re not with me and I need to go and collect them.

Sam Sutherland:

From somewhere else where they’ve been all day.

Lisa Corduff:

And one of my daughters is going on a play-date, so I only need to collect two. It’s a special, special day.

Lisa Corduff:

Sam, I’ll speak to you soon.

Sam Sutherland:

Speak to you soon. [crosstalk 00:41:04].

Lisa Corduff:

Bye.

Sam Sutherland:

Bye.

Lisa Corduff:

Hey, if you’re enjoying the conversation then it would mean the world to me if you head over to iTunes and give us a rating and review. It really makes a difference. And it’s my intention to get as many of us involved in real conversations that really change the game as possible. Thanks so much for your help, and I’ll see you in the next episode.